Andrew Lasky (00:00.726)
Everybody welcome to the commissions and cashflow show. I am your host Andrew Lasky. Today we have an amazing guest, Max Wiesenberg. Max, welcome to the show, brother.

Max Weisenberg (00:14.032)
Thanks for having me, super excited, Drew. I'm looking forward to this. Yeah, let's get into it.

Andrew Lasky (00:21.192)
Awesome. Now, Max, you are in the digital advertising industry. You specifically focus on working with medical practices. Tell the audience a little bit about your background, where you got started and where you are today.

Max Weisenberg (00:35.886)
Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, let's start at the beginning. I grew up Long Island, New York, played sports my whole life. I was fortunate to play Division I lacrosse, attended Bryant University. If you were to ask me up into my junior year of college, what do you go to school for? I probably would have said lacrosse, right? And people would say, no, no, no, what's your major, right?

I was just kind of the way that I was wired. So then I said, wow, I got to figure out after I graduated what I want to do. Lucky enough, turned out Bryant was a great business school, a top business school where I learned a lot. And a bunch of people recommended to me, why don't you try out sales, right? So my first sales job, Veronis, data security software.

I said, let me give this a shot. Start as an SDR. So I was booking meetings for someone to close the deal. And I'll never forget it. Setting that first meeting was like scoring a goal. I got that rush and that's when I knew, okay, sales is for me. So I was doing really well there, setting records as an SDR, but I didn't love the industry I was in.

Data security software is a little boring for me, not hating, right? Just for me personally, definitely a great industry, could make a lot of money. There's a big need for it. So then I decided to do some research into different industries. Healthcare checked a lot of the boxes. So I went over to a company called ZocDoc. I was working in New York City as an SDR. And again, setting meetings for closers.

Blew it out of the water there. Set all the records for most meetings completed. Then was promoted to a closing role where I won rep of the year. Was recruited from a competitor called Patient Pop. They were headquartered in LA. I walked into the interview, the remote office in New York thought I was interviewing to

Max Weisenberg (03:00.346)
work in New York in that office. The VP of sales walked in with eight laptops 15 minutes late to the interview said, I just got rid of everyone. I want you to move out to LA. I was 25 at the time. Couldn't think of a reason not to take a shot. Sent a box out of clothes to LA was sleeping in a studio apartment on my buddy's couch. I was probably the, I don't know, 15th employee.

ZocDoc and PatientPop both took off to billion dollar valuations, which I was a part of and I learned a ton. Was rep of the year at PatientPop, went into management and I learned a lot, right? But I tell a lot of people this story. It wasn't necessarily learning what worked at these companies, even though I did learn a lot that helped my career, but I would argue learning what didn't work.

and finding solutions to those problems was more important. And what got me to where I am today, which is I started my own business. My partner, Ryan, who you know very well, we started about four and a half years ago. And it was that learning what didn't work and finding solutions. And we offer a very unique marketing service. And yeah.

I mean, we got some big partners in the space, you know, Alma, Lazers, BTL, those were our two biggest and business is booming. Wasn't always that way, which I'm sure we'll get to in a few minutes here. Definitely some ups and downs, but stuck with it, excuse me, and it's paying off big time.

Andrew Lasky (04:46.636)
Yeah, so let's rewind back and let's talk about when you were an STR, I believe you called it. So doctors are notorious for being a tough crowd. mean, getting their attention is very difficult. Tell us how you did that. Was that through cold calling? Was that through cold email outreach? Were you going to a lot of trade shows? How did you get their attention to then set up those calls for the closers?

Max Weisenberg (05:10.502)
Yeah, absolutely. Really good question. I mean, try getting your own doctor on the phone, right? Good luck, right? So my job was getting past what we call gatekeepers, receptionists, getting the doctor on the phone to set a meeting for somebody else to close. I would drill it down to two things, credibility and relevance, okay? And I'll explain. So I would find a provider.

that we work with, usually a primary care provider, right? We worked with all different specialties. And I would call orthopedic surgeons, OBGYNs, dermatologists, et cetera, right? Primary cares refer to all those specialties. So when I call these practices to build credibility and relevance, let's go with OBGYN, for example, that I was calling.

You got to sound super local, right? So the credibility piece, hey, I'm calling. I work with Dr. Smith, the primary care right around the corner on Jones road or whatever it may be. I'm calling to speak with Dr. Smith about getting more pregnancy patients in the doors, right? Why? Because that's how OB-GYNs make money, right? That's what they want to hear about. So.

name dropping we would call it, right? Somebody who would typically refer patients to them that they probably already know that we're working with. And then talking about whatever specialty it is, being very specific, but the service that makes them the most money. And then being assumptive, right? So I would say things like, can you do me a favor? Let Dr. Jones know I'm on the line, thank you. And just sit there silently. And you'd be shocked.

Andrew Lasky (07:01.23)
Hmm?

Max Weisenberg (07:02.564)
They would go get that provider on the phone. And then you had 20, 30 seconds to build value to set that meeting for the account executive or the closer. But I knew there was things that I could control and couldn't. The number one thing that I could control was my activity. I was making more dials than anybody else, right? So that means I had more at bats, more opportunity to set meetings.

Andrew Lasky (07:29.422)
That's awesome. So let's talk about that 20 to 30 seconds that you had with the doctor once you got them on the phone. Were you presenting more about the pain or about like the opportunity that you have for them if they gave you a meeting or an extra five minutes or so?

Max Weisenberg (07:46.106)
Yeah, so get that provider on the phone. And there was a very short window to build value, right? So this is going back years. So give me a second to think. You know, I would say something like, you know, repeat the message that I told to the receptionist to build that quick credibility and relevance. And there would be a lot of, well, listen, Max, have patience. I got to go. Can you call me back? My go-to line was,

Listen doc, I'm surprised I got you in the first place. I didn't expect to get you. How about you give me that 15, 20 seconds right now. And if it's something that doesn't interest you, I don't have to bother you again. Does that sound fair? And if it sounds interesting, I'll let you go and we'll set up a meeting for a later time. And they say, okay, Max, you got 20 seconds go, right? Windows open now, you got to create that value. So again.

hit him with the credibility and relevance. At that point, I would name 10, 15 doctors, rat them all. I work with Dr. ABCDEFG, right? Hoping that he would recognize one. Maybe that buys me five or 10 more seconds, just cause he knows somebody that I'm working with, right? ZopDoc was a network of patients, right? For those aren't familiar, you can search for a provider by insurance zip code specialty, right? So the pitch was,

You know, Dr. Smith, we have pregnancy patients in our network that are looking for a provider that we have nowhere to send them to, right? Are you currently accepting new pregnancy patients? Yes. Okay, right. So get them excited about something that's gonna make them money. Hopefully they recognize the bunch of providers that I name drop and then schedule a meeting for that account executive. went a lot like that.

Andrew Lasky (09:37.71)
That's awesome. So depending on the specialty that you were speaking to, you had maybe like one or two things that you would emphasize on to hook them in to giving you another two, three or four minutes into the initial sales call.

Max Weisenberg (09:53.506)
Exactly, right? Orthopedic surgeons, they want surgeries, right? When I'm talking to them, hey, we have patients that need shoulder replacement, ACL surgery, et cetera. You gotta be specific to that provider you're talking to. New patients isn't enough, right? New patients could mean a million things, right? These providers don't want low reimbursing insurance patients, right? They don't wanna run consultations that they're gonna get reimbursed just a couple of bucks.

So knowing specifically what makes that provider money was super important.

Andrew Lasky (10:28.27)
And when you called these offices, did you focus on one specialty at a time? That way, you you've done all your preparation. You know what type of pain points they have for that specialty. You have then the list of doctors that are in their area. Did you just focus on calling one specialty at a time? That way you could just be more efficient.

Max Weisenberg (10:52.368)
Yeah, good question. So not necessarily one specialty, but one area. And there was a lot of prep, right? So the night before, right after hours, I was scrubbing, you know, my first 50 calls, right? And I had my sheet for Dr. X, their specialty, do the research on their website, what two services make them the next money. And then boom, go down the list and crank those 50 out. Well,

The competition, the other SDRs, they're spending most of their morning prepping, scrubbing their leads. I already had a head start if I'm setting that up the night before. And as soon as office hours open for these providers, I'm ripping dials.

Andrew Lasky (11:36.878)
Mm hmm. And now a lot of like pharmaceutical reps or med device reps, they bribe doctors with their time for food, right? Everyone knows the breakfast is the lunches, being a digital marketing agency. That's probably a little bit different. I don't know if the margins are as high as the pharma or med device companies. But were you ever able to like leverage a virtual lunch to nail down a time to speak with them?

Or was everything that you did just simply over the phone?

Max Weisenberg (12:11.146)
yeah, good question. So, at Zofdoc, it was over the phone at Patient Pop. And this wasn't necessarily me driving it, but, our marketing team would do a lot of direct mail, right? So, whether we'd send doctors things like notepads, right? Little things like that to just call against the direct mail, at least spark the conversation, right? To try to get past that gatekeeper. but.

I'm very familiar with what you're talking about, not necessarily approach that and approach, excuse me, that I have a lot of experience with.

Andrew Lasky (12:49.346)
Gotcha. Okay. What are some type of like misconceptions that doctors have in regards to digital marketing?

Max Weisenberg (12:58.374)
misconceptions, there's a lot of them. It doesn't work, right? My biggest challenge when I started this business with my partner and we knew it going in, people have been burnt in the past by marketing, right? And we offer a very, very unique service that we call a concierge service, okay? And I'll explain what that service is. So,

Remember, I'm going to say this a lot, right? You get a lot of value out of learning what doesn't work, right? And then finding solutions. So one of the companies I worked for, we partnered with a device company before I started my own business and we did paid social media advertising, okay? Lead generation. And I would get phone calls every single day from the provider. These providers were upset.

Hey Max, you know, these are the people that bought the device and then our marketing was included. And the conversation would go something like this. Hey Max, I got a mortgage payment in my back room, right? To purchase these devices. the device company told me your marketing was going to work. It's been two months. Nobody came in. What the heck is going on? My manager would tell me to show them the dashboard. Okay. and this is what our competition, this is what my competition does now.

The dashboard was filled with fluffy nonsense things like we got you 60 leads in 60 days So all that means is 60 people saw the advertisement They put in their name their cell phone their email address and then that information was typically emailed to the provider or somebody at the office You know, James Smith is interested in skin rejuvenation. Good luck get him in the office or we would say things like no that

doing really well. It got 10,000 clicks, hits, views, impressions. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is who came in and who paid, right? So the worst part of the job was pointing the finger at these business owners. And I had to do this and saying things like, well, we did our job. We got you 60 leads in 60 days. How quickly did you call them? How many times did you call them? Did you try texting them?

Max Weisenberg (15:17.626)
The usual response was Max, I'm busy running my medical practice. we called in between patients a couple hours later, sometimes a day later, we left a voicemail. They never answered these leads stink. I heard this for almost two years every day thinking there's gotta be a better way to do this. I'm going to tell another quick 20 second story and this will all make sense. I promise.

I ran the largest inbound marketing team in the country for healthcare. So if somebody Googled medical marketing, a business owner, aesthetic website, a whole bunch of different keywords, they were gonna see an ad for the old company I worked for, right? They would put in their business information, which went to the sales team that I trained to call them, get in touch with them and try to sign them up.

So my partner and I thought, wow, wouldn't it be a really good idea to implement this, to provide this for the practice? And here's what I mean. We call it a concierge service. So unlike the competition, just sending leads to everybody and saying, good luck, we're going to provide them with an internal sales team, right? My business, we live in the aesthetic cash pay space right now. so we have a team of trained sales professionals. Okay.

they're familiar with the technology that we're marketing. They've worked at med spas and we run it like a true sales team, right? objection handling, listening to call recordings. So when that lead comes in, what we're going to do is run it through a cadence, which I've tested. I've wrote sales scripts. I've tested cadences. So when that lead comes in, we're going to hit it eight times over six days. Lead response time is the most important metric. That's where businesses were missing.

If you look at the data, every minute you wait after a lead comes in, less likely you're going to get in touch. They're going to come in, they're going to purchase something. So when they fill out these ads, we hit them with the text automatically. We always call within five minutes. We've run them through that cadence. We get them on the phone for the business. We speak with them, we qualify, and we book the consultation for them right into their scheduling software.

Andrew Lasky (17:34.478)
That's awesome. So not only are you using your sales skills to get the business, but you're using your sales skills to get the physician business. I think that's so cool. That's definitely has to be a very big separator from other marketing companies in the industry. Going back to the actual sales process. So once you moved from the appointment center to the closer, tell the audience what the sales process looks like for digital advertising.

when you're speaking with a physician and you're now going into like the demo phase from when they, you know, set up that second meeting and then go in and actually close the deal.

Max Weisenberg (18:13.702)
Yeah, absolutely, good question. So the sales process as a closer, okay. So most of my meetings are ran over probably a 30, 40 minute Zoom call, okay. And I'm doing prep on their current, what I would call online presence, right. And during these calls, you know, we do website search engine optimization and of course our concierge service.

It is definitely a transactional sale, right? So the sale cycle is very short. A lot of one call closes or one follow-up call, get that yes, no, if you get them great, if not move on to the next lead. So on these calls, and this is something I learned at patient pop that really made me successful in my opinion. there's two things.

I never lost that grit of being in SDR, right? So I got promoted, I had somebody setting meetings for me. But again, it comes down to our backs, it's math, right? So when I was winning rep of the year, I knew that yes, my close rate was equal to the person who came in second place, right? But I was still ripping those dials, setting my own meeting. So if we had the same close rate, I was gonna win, because I had more at bats, right?

So when we're getting them on the phone, the other reps and what most sales reps, the way that they sell is what I would call future looking. Hey, we're going to get you a bunch of new patients. We're going to get you a bunch of new patients, but they've heard that pitch before, right? So my pitch is a little bit different. And I strongly recommend this to all salespeople because this will apply to any industry.

And what I mean is I would focus on not necessarily future looking new patients, but what is the opportunity costs of doing nothing of you not moving forward with our marketing, right? And I'll give you some examples. SEO, right? All the data points that people are going to Google to find medical providers, cash pay services. so I would get the doc to understand that and he would agree.

Max Weisenberg (20:35.748)
And he's not on the first page of Google. So I would ask him, doc, you think you're missing out on just a couple, knowing that 90 % start their search online and you're invisible. Would you agree that you're missing out on just a couple of patients a month? Yeah, Max, I would agree with that. Okay. Check that box. Let's talk about reviews. and I'd show them data. You got to educate, right? You can't make assumptions that they're familiar with what you're selling. you know, doc.

Do you think patients read reviews that they influence decisions? If they say yes, great. If they say no, I'm pulling up an article showing them the percentage of patients that go to look at reviews before making a decision. So you got to check that box before you get into why reviews are important. If they don't believe they're important and you just jump into it, you got to pump the brakes, right? So they agree that it's important. Okay. I show them data to support that. Okay doc, your reviews aren't great.

Do you think you're losing a couple of patients a month with your reviews the way that they are? Yes. And I will take them through each of our services in a similar pattern. And by the end of the call, when I show them the price, it's not, we're going to get you a million new patients. They've heard that pitch. It stopped. I would argue you told me you're losing a few patients because you're not showing up in search. You're losing a few patients because

your reviews aren't reflective of your practice or they're not as good as they should be. So I would argue it's, it's costing you more money to do nothing. It's cheaper to go with our service and pay the monthly fee than it is to do nothing. and when I figured that out, it was a different approach. It was a fresh pitch. I saw my close rate skyrocket.

Andrew Lasky (22:24.6)
That's awesome. And one thing that I, one thing that I absorbed through, know, what you just said was the fact that while you're going through and you're telling them the different avenues as to what could be, giving them that problem, you're doing like little mini check-ins to get their buy-in so that when it comes to the end of the presentation and you're presenting your solution, you're including all of the things that are important to them. So

it's actually costing them more money to not move forward with you and actually solve their issues. That's awesome. So because you are a, you know, mostly one call closed type of sale, what are some common objections that you guys get in digital advertising?

Max Weisenberg (23:14.288)
Good question, common objections, price, right? It's gonna be price. Now there's two ways to handle this with those check-ins, right? So that when you get to price, you can revisit those. Well, doc, you just told me you're losing patience by not doing X, Y, and Z. But the other thing I wanna talk about is, and our services are not cheap. It's a premier service that we offer currently.

And something that was taught to me at patient pop by a gentleman by the name of Kevin Dorsey, KD most people know him by, big LinkedIn influencer. He taught me, he called it eight mile in someone and I'll explain, right? I'm sure most people saw the Eminem movie eight mile, right? And if you remember at the end, the rap battle, the final rap battle, right?

where basically he just roasts himself, where he comes out with everything that he thinks the person he's doing the rap battle against is going to say. So if, if you know, and price is the biggest objection, our services are expensive, you know, that's going to come at some point in every conversation. Don't sit back and wait for it, right? Cause you're going to lose control of that conversation. Right.

So what can you do is you come out, you eight mile them. I know our services are more expensive than the competition, but I just showed you X, Y, and Z, right? This'll keep you in control of the conversation. You know they're thinking it's expensive. Don't sit back, don't hide from it. So any industry in those common objections, my advice would be to maintain control and you.

bring up that objection rather than sitting back and waiting for it because you could quickly lose control of that conversation.

Andrew Lasky (25:14.734)
Mm hmm. And Max, now that you're building a very large team, I'm sure you have some reps that are, you know, crushing it. And then there are some that aren't doing as well. What do you think separates the ones that do well from the ones that don't?

Max Weisenberg (25:30.97)
good question. What separates the ones from do well, the ones that are doing well from the ones that that don't. I would say, there's the, there's the intangibles, which I talked about, right? Like putting in the dials, making the calls, making the outreach, but, the successful reps have a desire to consistently want to get better. Right.

So my door's always open. mean, we work remote, but the ones that are reaching out to other top reps, reaching out to me, people have been successful proactively asking for advice, trying to get better. Those are the ones that are benefiting. If you could get a little bit better each day, right? You're moving in the right direction. So I would say it's the work ethic.

and then never being content, always wanting more, always wanting to get better.

Andrew Lasky (26:28.846)
That's awesome. So Max, we're now headed into the final part of our show, which is called the final four. This is the same four questions that we ask every single guest that comes on the show. Question number one is what is your favorite sales book or your favorite sales movie?

Max Weisenberg (26:47.6)
Favorite sales book or favorite sales movie? That's a good question. So Never split the difference is definitely a book. I don't want to say that's my my favorite. I mean I got let me turn this around Coffees for closers in the office Glenn Gary right Glenn Ross. We got some wolf back here Leo, but those aren't my favorite. I'm I'm a softy

Andrew Lasky (27:06.828)
I love this.

Max Weisenberg (27:17.158)
I'm a, I like the motivational stuff. Tearjerker, Pursuit of Happiness, Will Smith, right? Like I've seen that movie so many times. It's one of those that, I mean, who watches cable, right? But if it comes on, like I'm dropping what I'm doing, I'm tuning in. Just the story is super motivational.

Andrew Lasky (27:25.387)
Okay.

Max Weisenberg (27:41.626)
handling adversity and how to respond to adversity and that gentleman, for those who don't know, went on to have a super poor style. They're sleeping in the bathroom like that scene. He's got me, but stuck with it. Ultimately, started his own business, super rich. And I can't relate exactly to that story, but I have a story of my own where two years into my business, we were

damn near, we were failing. We were this close to closing the doors before we turn things around. starting your own business, it's not supposed to be easy. If everybody could do it, they would. I'm getting a little bit on a tangent here, but yeah, to answer your question, it would be a pursuit of happiness. I love that movie, very motivational.

Andrew Lasky (28:32.428)
I love that movie as well. being that I came from the medical device industry, that one definitely hits home. Question number two, Max, what's one strategy or tactic that you implemented that completely changed sales for you?

Max Weisenberg (28:35.334)
you

Max Weisenberg (28:48.1)
Yeah. So I touched on it. I touched on it earlier. I got to go back to the opportunity cost of doing nothing, like the status quo, right? So being that we're partnered with these device companies and, you know, I'm speaking to a lot of them before they make the purchase of the device, right? To explain the marketing, because our services are included with our big partners. and

You know, you hear a lot of the same things. Reimbursements are down. making less and less money each year. so sure. You could talk about, Hey, you could buy this device. The average patient is three, four or five K plus. That's cool. But a successful pitch, is, you know, drilling into their current pain, the status quo, right?

Well, Doc, what is the opportunity cost? What does your business look like in three, four years, right? After you're telling me that you're losing money year over year, reimbursements are getting worse. You're working twice as hard as you did five years ago for less money. So I understand this is a big investment, right? To purchase a device like this. But what does your business look like without this purchase? And if you do nothing in the next three, four or five years?

So that's definitely hands down the number one thing for me that changed the way I pitch, the way I coach people. And I saw the biggest increase in my close rate throughout my career.

Andrew Lasky (30:24.97)
I love it. Question number three, what is your favorite purchase that you've ever made with a commission check?

Max Weisenberg (30:32.762)
Favorite purchase with a commission check? The next purchase? Nah, right. Actually just last week, I just got a blacked out full body Range Rover. Range Rover SE, full size baby, yeah. So that's number one for sure until the next one. I know when we talk again, I'll have a better one for you.

Andrew Lasky (30:37.742)
Ha ha ha.

Andrew Lasky (30:48.238)
We'll sign.

You gotta do that. I love it.

Andrew Lasky (31:02.432)
I love it. Last question, knowing what you know now, if you had to start all over in sales again, what would be the first thing that you would do?

Max Weisenberg (31:12.27)
another good question. I, in the beginning of my career, like super competitive, almost arrogant, if I want to be honest, to a fault where my competitiveness would get in the way. So I had trouble asking for help early in my career, right? So if I could go back and do it again, I call it being a sponge, right?

whatever company you go to, right? Identify somebody, and I learned this later in my career, who has a similar sales style to you, that's really important. You can't imitate someone with a whole different sales style. Similar sales style to you, that's really successful, and never be afraid to put your hand up and ask for help, right? There's great sales people out there who have done it before. Don't let your pride get in the way. Soak it up, be a sponge.

Andrew Lasky (32:03.15)
Mhm.

Max Weisenberg (32:11.578)
There's so many great people that you could learn from. And it just took me a couple of years. And now I love not when I don't know something. I'm the first one to throw my hand up. I know what I'm good at, at this point in my career. And I focus that. But we have a whole bunch of different departments, right? So when there's something I'm not good at as a business owner, go find somebody who really is good at that. Right. And let them do their thing.

So I would say being comfortable asking for help, especially early on in your career. If I could go back and do it again, I think that would have expedited where I am today and my success.

Andrew Lasky (32:52.622)
That's awesome. Yeah, I feel like a lot of people, let their ego get in the way and they're afraid to ask questions when in reality, it's the ones that really annoy like other reps that get the information that they need and they collapse time and they become way more successful than some of the other guys simply because they asked for help. So Max, thank you so much for coming on the show. This has been amazing. If people want to learn more about you, where can they find you?

Max Weisenberg (33:19.834)
Yeah, absolutely. Hit me up on, on LinkedIn. We're, hiring like crazy. We need bodies for all different departments. So, Max Weisenberg, last name. It's a long one. W E I S E N B E R G. we put some recent job postings up there, but, I love helping people. I want to pay it forward. There's a lot of people that influence my career. So, feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. You'll get a response.

Andrew Lasky (33:47.667)
Awesome. Max, thanks again. I'll talk to you soon, my friend.

Max Weisenberg (33:51.108)
Alright buddy, thank you.